Hey m@tes, as y’all know, this instance has been anti-corporate GenAI positive since it’s creation and as such we’ve typically allowed such content to be posted freely. However in the last few weeks we’ve had a bunch of drama from GenAI haters who insist on coming into our comms and starting slap-fights. This caused us to vote on a new rule to have the mandate to clear out this constant friction. This worked to an extent, but I think we can help foster a better community with the larger threadiverse.

One issue a lot of anti-GenAI people keep bringing is that while they can block dedicated comms like !stable_diffusion_art@lemmy.dbzer0.com, they don’t have an easy option to avoid GenAI content in random other /0 comms as there’s no way to filter it out. This kind of content has been seen to cause a lot of strife, because people complain about its existence, while /0 admins and mods based on the above rule, tend to sanction those complaining. This then causes drama loops with /c/YPTB and /c/FuckAI etc.

There is a good point to be made here that while we don’t mind GenAI content in /0, there isn’t a reason to not help others avoid it. So we want to institute the following soft rule by now:

Simply tag your posts which consist of primarily GenAI content with the [GenAI] tag in their title. Not only will frontends like Tesseract will natively parse this as a tag and display it accordingly, but people who dislike such content, can simply filter it out of their feeds. Eventually lemmy will add tags which will make this tagging more seamless, but for now a manual tag in the title will suffice.

This rule only applies to posts in non-explicit GenAI comms. The assumption is that people can simply block those comms completely anyway.

As I said, this is a soft rule for now. Soft in the sense that you’re not going to be sanctioned for forgetting it, but we hope people will remind you to do so. This is a good-faith attempt by us to co-exist and help others avoid what they don’t want to stumble onto, much like [NSFW] tags. So I hope you’ll add do a good faith attempt to help us in this. Furthermore, people who come to posts tagged as GenAI explicitly to scold and start slap-fights, will give the admins and easier justification to clean up, since they could have just filtered out that content in the first place.

Cheers

  • hemko@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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    7 months ago

    I think this is a good addition. We shouldn’t alienate other like-minded people because of slight disagreements in my mind “minor shit” like this, and this seems like the least that can be done.

    Also, I believe this post should be tagged with [GenAi] because of the attached image? 😅

  • Eyedust@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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    7 months ago

    I was wondering if you guys would catch the latest shitstorm on this. Definitely a necessary precaution. Its a good idea, and I hope it will be enough.

    Its getting to the point where people are blanket terming us as unhinged and blocking the whole instance because debates are getting heated. :(

    • Deceptichum@quokk.au
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      7 months ago

      The anti-ai people are sending death threats and transphobic remarks to mods.

      They really need to step back and reassess their lives.

      • Eyedust@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        7 months ago

        Its getting heated on both sides from what I’ve seen floating around. I have to stand more with db0, because the other side just seems to be openly marketing hate-mongering. Which of course is going to bait a rise out of some here. We haven’t been going around slandering people who hate AI, but I’ve seen people going around openly slandering this instance for liking it. That’s what happens when you create a community solely based on the hate of a subject. Its just a breeding ground for negative energy.

        I’ve been on both sides. I’m not really cool with AI stealing art and prose to add onto their repertoire, but I have self-hosted LLMs and enjoy using them locally. There’s a place for AI, and unfortunately big corp is pushing an agenda that places AI in a horrible light, so its no wonder people hate it. That doesn’t mean that they should create a hate-based community, but hey, that’s a part of real freedom.

        On the other side of this coin, we have people here who stoke the flames by pre-banning people from communities they moderate in wild displays of power abuse, or joining in on fuck_ai to openly speak out in a community where they’re obviously not wanted and in general just taking a stick to the beehive. I’ve seen plenty on this side that disregard the rules and beliefs of anarchy, instigate arguments, and flout the premise of one of the ideas that db0 stands against- abuse of power.

        Like I said, I can’t blame some of them. Its hard to ignore some of the obvious slander that db0 gets sometimes, but it doesn’t mean we should openly validate them by getting hot around the collar about it. We shouldn’t take the high road, either. Pretentious high-horsing is just as bad as openly getting angry. Let AI-haters openly bash AI and try to understand that there is a vindicated reason for it. Its not us or even AI itself, its how AI is being marketed and used by big corp. We need to push that we don’t believe in that, the same as they don’t, without swinging bats at the first hater we come across.

        The best thing db0 can do right now is be respectful. I get it, we’re not exactly receiving that same respect sometimes, but stooping down to low levels of disrespect just based on the venom that spits out of an individual’s mouth is just not the answer. Whereas I don’t think this will get as bad as .ml or hexbear levels of hatred, I really don’t want us to be the next in that spotlight.

        Death threats and transphobia are just the cries of the few disgusting extremists. I agree that they need to stop immediately. I tend to dislike anything extremist. Their respective instances should be taking action against those individuals. If they don’t, I have no doubts that Lemmy will stand against them as a whole. Transphobia in general isn’t and shouldn’t be tolerated anywhere, and usually isn’t tolerated here at all.

        In the case of those individuals, I just see children throwing a tantrum and trying anything to scare or upset mods. That’s when slurs and scare tactics pop their ugly heads out of the grass, and they should be ashamed for just thinking those things, let alone acting on them. But that’s not instance vs. instance. That’s a handful of people in an instance being angry at a handful of people from another instance. There should be no reason to start a war of many based on the battle of a few.

        So I don’t disagree with you, but the context makes all the difference in the world. Its a very complicated and complex situation.

        tl;dr: This whole thing sucks, but at least we’re taking steps on our side to solve it.

      • Eyedust@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        7 months ago

        It’s going to take a while to do that now. People are all riled up right now and really should cool off a bit. I know what you mean, though, because this instance’s stance on AI is basically my stance on it.

        There are great applications for it, but the government and big corp are pushing it into a disgusting direction, as they do with everything they get their hands on that could give them power or money.

  • tal@lemmy.today
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    7 months ago

    Most AI image generators that generate images add EXIF metadata indicating that the image is AI-generated. This helps people who want to identify AI-generated images readily.

    In the case of ComfyUI, it even includes the entire workflow — like, another ComfyUI user can just grab the image, drop it onto their ComfyUI Web UI and they’ll be right where the generating user was.

    Unfortunately, EXIF metadata can contain location information — some cameras and such add it — and this metadata led to people posting images at places like Reddit being doxxed after they didn’t realize that they were posting their GPS location and maybe real name, stuff that some cameras attach. As a result, a number of image-hosting places simply strip all metadata, to prevent users from from accidentally leaking this information.

    Pict-rs, the software package that Lemmy hosts run to permit image uploads, does this. Unfortunately, it means that those “this is an AI-generated image” tags get stripped off.

    So, for example, on my system, with ComfyUI, using ImageMagick:

    $ identify -verbose output/ComfyUI_00312_.png 
    

    “Properties:prompt” has a JSON encoding of the workflow.

    Sample images generated by various AI image generators are readily-available on civitai.com.

    For this generator that generated this image on civitai, it looks like the parameter is “Properties:parameters”.

    I believe that there are a small number of such tags today.

    It would be technically possible to just not have pict-rs strip that particular tag (or tags, if there are multiple that a given generator adds?) off, have a list of “AI-generated tags”, then have Lemmy add some visual indicator that an image is AI-generated. I’d suggest that this is probably a better longer-term route to indicate that an image is AI-generated than manually-tagging post titles, for a couple of reasons:

    • Spiders that index images on the Web will know that the image is AI-generated and can flag that for users and let them use that as a filtering criteria (e.g. Kagi Images permits for this). They aren’t going to understand tags in post titles, but the metadata tags are somewhat universal.

    • Doesn’t require manual effort if an image can have some indicator or flair or whatever put on it automatically. And I guarantee that some users are going to get this wrong just by accident, because different instances have different rules. Easier to change how a computer works than to change human behavior across-the-board.

    • Works on all instances.

    • The information remains attached to the image even if downloaded.

    • Works for images that aren’t just the subject of single-image posts and don’t have an associated title.

    • Speaking purely for myself, I kind of like the open-source, collaborative aspect of sharing the workflows or prompts, since it helps other users see how an image was created and learn from it; it’s something that I’m glad to see the generators include, and I’m kind of sad that we strip it off on the Threadiverse.

  • Soapbox@lemmy.zip
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    7 months ago

    As a genAI hater, I appreciate this. I already block the dedicated communities as I see them in /all. This is helpful to filter out more of the outliers if posters cooperate and actually use the tag. (I think alot of genAI zealots get off on trying to see if people will notice their posts are AI.)

      • Deceptichum@quokk.au
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        7 months ago

        The social effects of me generating an image are non-existent.

        The social effects of capitalism are all reaching and exist independently of LLMs.

    • unbanshee@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      7 months ago

      I mean…

      I can imagine how artists struggling to make ends meet might be angry that work they’d spent years learning and honing their skills to produce was and is being crawled by tools made by a bunch of silver-spoon-chomping techbros who are marketing their products to businesses who employ artists as a way to employ less artists, and pay peanuts to those they do hire to wrangle prompts and fix AI mistakes instead of actually getting to make art.

      And I can imagine how frustrating it is to see people minimize that struggle when it often benefits oligarchs and C-suite ghouls.

      • curbstickle@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        7 months ago

        This isn’t exactly a capitalist tech-bro instance. So while I agree with there being a problem here, the problem is less genai and more about capitalism IMHO.

        Which is why it can seem a bit silly to me to go after this instance of all things when it comes to genai.

        That said, as always, I think db0’s soft rule is a really great good faith effort to be accommodating to others, while staying true to the core of what the instance is about.

        So I hope you’ll see that part of things and tone it down in kind.

        • unbanshee@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          7 months ago

          Sorry, what exactly do I need to tone down?

          Pretty sure this is the first time I’ve ever commented on the issue here or elsewhere on Lemmy.

          I see anti-AI sentiment all over the fediverse, but nothing in the original post that would indicate that these users are exclusively targeting db0 communities, just that the admins here have chosen to address it; and I agree it’s a good way to handle the situation.

          I think there are good and valuable use cases for AI, including generative AI.

          But I also think a lot of the costs are hidden because the tools are free and easy to access, and because those coats often pretty abstract and wide-ranging so as to be difficult to observe, quantify, and attribute to an emerging technology. So I think there are a lot of really valid reasons to question casual use of those tools because they do not exist outside of capitalism.

          The point of my earlier post wasn’t meant to be that all use of AI is bad or that somebody using it to make a meme or art of their big-titty anime waifu is directly putting artists out of work, but I also don’t think that those things are entirely separable, either.

          And since I was replying to a user whose comment made a blanket claim implying that casual use of generative AI is trivial, well… no, I don’t think it is.

          I’ve done all sorts of art in my life. Sometimes as a job. And it’s personally pretty disheartening to see comments like “it just looks like AI, human-made art doesn’t look like that” because yes, it sometimes does, even if the poster has never seen human-made art like that.

          But I’ve also spent the last few years watching dozens of friends and former coworkers lose their careers and their livelihoods en masse for no reason other than naked greed.

          I think that making art more accessible through AI can be a really cool and pretty liberating thing for a lot of people, but as it’s being employed by the big corporate players, it does have big serious negative externalities for working artists and for cultural products writ large, and I think that’s worth bringing up.

          • curbstickle@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            7 months ago

            Sorry, what exactly do I need to tone down?

            More of a general commentary for the anti-AI folks.

            but nothing in the original post that would indicate that these users are exclusively targeting db0 communities

            There have been pretty frequent cases of it lately, as db0 is pro ai.

            So I think there are a lot of really valid reasons to question casual use of those tools because they do not exist outside of capitalism.

            They do, there are many openly created and developed options which can be entirely locally run.

            This is an anarchist instance.

            This is not the same thing as anarcho-capitalist, which I personally think is nonsensical to include ‘anarch’ at all in because its just extremist capitalism with corporations rather than states. Its not remotely anarchist, but that’s a digression.

            This instance is specifically anti-capitalism. And while I understand you are saying you are not running around being anti-AI, the latter 75% of the comment I’m replying to speaks to a capitalism problem, not a genai problem.

            There are many people complaining about genai that are just complaining about capitalism. They might be using genai as the context, but the complaint is about capitalism. Just like the majority of your comment.

            So the people who are going on db0 communities, complaining about genai (with capitalism as the reason why), well they really aren’t paying attention to what the instance is.

            • unbanshee@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              7 months ago

              I know this is an anarchist instance. It’s part of the reason I assumed that anti-capitalism would be a given and I didn’t need to bang the drum about it before stating my arguments. I am anti-capitalist.

              It seems like your faith is much higher than mine that people are vetting the AI tools they use, or that they exclusively use their own works as training material.

              From what I can tell, our stable diffusion art communities make no distinction between training sets, nor do they require that shared images be trained on public-domain or user-owned data only. Given that, I don’t think it’s completely unreasonable that people are equating stable diffusion users with users generating their content on the big models that were indiscriminately fed the entire internet. There’s no way to easily tell.

              And outside of capitalism and industry, there are interesting philosophical discussions that need to be had around generative AI that I don’t see enough. Here are a few of the topics I think need to be examined more, both by human society at large, and by AI-art communities especially:

              • What does “good artists borrow, great artists steal” mean when the artist in question is modulating their output by inhuman means - parsing millions of images in ways that are physical impossibility? I think that’s worth interrogating.

              • What say do living artists get in who uses their work in training sets, and how should that be respected? Is ignorance of publicly-stated wishes an acceptable excuse? How should this be moderated?

              • How do we assign value (cultural, economic, personal, sentimental, or any other) to creative works? I think arguably that both human-created and generative AI art are the product of thousands of years of human creative output, but they’re vastly different in terms of the skill, types of knowledge, and time required to create one piece.

              And it worries me that a lot of people seem pretty inclined to dismiss criticism of AI use as frivolous or reactionary, or couch it as a base refusal to adapt or learn new technologies. Especially when the people driving policy around the largest implementations of that technology are the ones who are the least principled in its deployment.

              I know that this is a small community. I know that the proportion of people here who use custom stable diffusion models is almost definitely much higher than many other forums on the internet.

              But I worry that if we don’t have this kind of discussion here, where people are (maybe, optimistically/flatteringly) more judicious in their use of AI than elsewhere - if we don’t have clear, principled guidelines, then the prevailing attitudes are ultimately going to wind up being those of Microsoft, Google, OpenAI, or fucking Grok.

              For now though, unless I know that someone is using models trained on their own work, or at least public-domain works, I feel like I’m crossing a picket line, and I don’t like that.

              • curbstickle@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                7 months ago

                It seems like your faith is much higher than mine that people are vetting the AI tools they use, or that they exclusively use their own works as training material.

                Here vs other instances? Absolutely, yes, more would be. That said, that isn’t what I said - I said they exist, and that people here would predominantly be running locally. Personally I train my own models, but I don’t presume everyone else is. That doesn’t change the core of the issue in your comments - the complaints are about capitalism, genai is just the context for that.

                From what I can tell, our stable diffusion art communities make no distinction between training sets, nor do they require that shared images be trained on public-domain or user-owned data only. Given that, I don’t think it’s completely unreasonable that people are equating stable diffusion users with users generating their content on the big models that were indiscriminately fed the entire internet. There’s no way to easily tell.

                There mostly aren’t ways to tell, so there would be no requirement of that. Add to that this being an instance that would support taking the models from corporations and not using their systems to run them and that being taking away from corporations, yeah, I’d bet some do.

                That doesn’t really change capitalism being the root of the problem though, does it?

                Here are a few of the topics I think need to be examined more, both by human society at large, and by AI-art communities especially:

                • What does “good artists borrow, great artists steal” mean when the artist in question is modulating their output by inhuman means - parsing millions of images in ways that are physical impossibility? I think that’s worth interrogating.
                • What say do living artists get in who uses their work in training sets, and how should that be respected? Is ignorance of publicly-stated wishes an acceptable excuse? How should this be moderated?
                • How do we assign value (cultural, economic, personal, sentimental, or any other) to creative works? I think arguably that both human-created and generative AI art are the product of thousands of years of human creative output, but they’re vastly different in terms of the skill, types of knowledge, and time required to create one piece.

                I think these are fantastic questions! I also wouldn’t call them anti-ai, which is the part I was calling out. The anti-ai folks think that think any and all use of these models is somehow wrong, and then answer with an issue that at its root is just “capitalism is the problem” is what I was calling out.

                And it worries me that a lot of people seem pretty inclined to dismiss criticism of AI use as frivolous or reactionary, or couch it as a base refusal to adapt or learn new technologies. Especially when the people driving policy around the largest implementations of that technology are the ones who are the least principled in its deployment.

                I don’t believe I said anything like that, what I did was say that bringing up something that boils down to “capitalism” doesn’t make sense as a reason to bring up on this instance, and its what many anti-ai folks do. I think the questions you had above are exactly the type that should be welcomed and explored, but if someone is coming to a community hosted here to just complain about genai and downvote things because they don’t like that - well, thats equally as uninformed and unhelpful.

                But I worry that if we don’t have this kind of discussion here, where people are (maybe, optimistically/flatteringly) more judicious in their use of AI than elsewhere - if we don’t have clear, principled guidelines, then the prevailing attitudes are ultimately going to wind up being those of Microsoft, Google, OpenAI, or fucking Grok.

                I think discussions are great!

                I just think people immediately spewing off “Ugh AI” or “slop” or whatever is not productive and has no place on this instance.

                For now though, unless I know that someone is using models trained on their own work, or at least public-domain works, I feel like I’m crossing a picket line, and I don’t like that.

                And you absolutely can feel that way, 100%.

                What would be inappropriate would be the above comments because of a complete lack of being informed that some people do train their own models, do use public domain works, etc, or complain about the non-public domain works for a reason that boils down to a persistent problem - capitalism - and just saying its genai that is the problem, not the capitalistic nonsense behind those large corporations abusing everyone’s work and then selling it.

            • Gold_E_Lox@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              7 months ago

              i understand what youre saying, no ethical consumption etc etc, but gen ai to me is akin to buying from Amazon, or eating meat and dairy products. like yeah, one person doing it isnt the issue, and its normalised and easy, and todays hypercapitalism is the root issue of why these things are bad so its not really your fault.

              if you cant/ wont take these things into account with your stated moral attitudes (anti capital/ corporate, pro environmental, etc) then why say you are an anarchist?

              idk if this makes sense, and im not trying to take away your lefty badge or whatever, but shouldnt we try to not use the tools of the ownership class? shouldnt we try to uplift our fellow workers instead of freely using tools we know steal their labour?

              • curbstickle@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                7 months ago

                You seem to believe that all of the genai platforms are Gemini, copilot, etc.

                This is decidedly untrue.

                There are many models built entirely on public domain works, not made by or for the benefit of any corporation or business entity.

                I have personally built models (not llm, thats not my use case) for identifying certain movement patterns in animals. I have made others to identify problems in audio.

                The sampled data is all mine. There is no company backing it, no corporate overlord.

                Capitalism is not involved.

                In what way is it a “tool of the ownership class” for me to use my own models for my own use?

                In the same vein, in what way are generative ai models, developed on readily available, public domain materials, provided equally to all possible both as the model (as well as available processing for free as you’ll find here) a “tool of the ownership class”?

                I’m not trying to be dismissive here, but what it sounds like to me is that you have limited knowledge of these solutions, and are suggesting all of them are owned by MS/Google/Meta/OpenAI/etc, and that isn’t remotely accurate.

                Thats like saying I shouldn’t use a wrench I made in my metal shop at home, because Snap-On makes wrenches, so wrenches are a tool of the ownership class.

                • Gold_E_Lox@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                  7 months ago

                  wrench analogy is very good, ai can be used as a tool.

                  i would like to see the numbers of people using ‘off the rack’ vs home grown on this site. maybe that would help me change my mind further :)

      • zr0@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        7 months ago

        I see your point and agree. It is a shit situation for artists, at least for 90% of them without a distinct art style. Same goes for writers. Same goes for accountants (when the first accounting software was released). Same for …. Anything that has been or will be replaced by technology.

        Additionally, art is not just about the visual output. Art is multi-layered. And I am talking about real art, not just drawings. And those things cannot be replaced by a machine (yet).

          • zr0@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            7 months ago

            With a bit of experience, I can also paint Mona Lisa. But I doubt that someone will credit me for this or buy anything off me.

  • Grimy@lemmy.world
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    7 months ago

    It’s a good idea in spirit but the tags will mostly be used to brigade and not to filter in my opinion. Most apps dont even have the feature if I’m not mistaken.

      • Even_Adder@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        7 months ago

        It’s been going on for a while now on !lemmydirectory@lemmy.dbzer0.com. The sidebar even says:

        Our community has bots making regular posts showcasing best content from communities in given categories to help promote them. Each category is assigned to it’s own bot to allow users blocking posts from unwanted categories and tailor the feed for their preferences without the need to block the whole community. Here’s the current list of bot accounts:

        I’m not sure how much clearly marked posts are going to help the problem. I feel like the people browsing through all are targeting the content and won’t ever see the sidebar.

  • Mystic Mushroom [Ze/Zir]@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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    7 months ago

    I think this is a nice gesture but I also think it’s way too charitable for the Anti-GenAI people currently complaining. Their issue isn’t that they want to avoid it, they want to stamp it out, they want it gone. They’re not going to hide posts or keywords, they’re going to brigade them. They already brigade and harass explicitly GenAI communities and don’t block them. They’ve harassed me multiple times, told me to die in DMs and even impersonated me for running such communities. Tagging isn’t going to help, they’re just going to use it to hunt down people who post it and brigade the posts or target the users, because they aren’t angry that they are seeing it, they’re angry that it exists and they wish to stamp it out, no matter the cost.

    In short this is a good solution with good intentions but it assumes a level of good faith that just isn’t there. I’d agree with this if the problem was really people just not wanting to see it, but the problem is much deeper. I’m sure that once people start doing it, the goal posts will be moved and they’ll just stop using “untagged” as a reason for complaining.

    • Gold_E_Lox@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      7 months ago

      not to downplay these issues, the impersonation is fucked and weird. but i guess trolls gonna troll and whack-a-mole is the only solution…

      idk what else would you have in mind?

      • Mystic Mushroom [Ze/Zir]@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        7 months ago

        I think that the AI friendly nature of our instance needs to be clearly written in our instance sidebar (@db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com and @Flatworm7591@lemmy.dbzer0.com can help with that) which would help out since the instance sidebar is visible in all dbzer0 communities which are remote. It should probably also be included in the application prompt as a disclaimer, since I’m seeing a lot of dbzer0 people who signed up and are complaining about AI (guys what the fuck are you doing here on an AI instance if you hate AI).

        Also moderation, moderation is the only real way to deal with the Anti-AI brigading and trolling. Preventative moderation can also be used as well if things get bad enough and/or don’t improve.

        • db0@lemmy.dbzer0.comOPM
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          7 months ago

          We’re not an so Ai focused that we need it on the sidebar and the application instructions

          • Mystic Mushroom [Ze/Zir]@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            7 months ago

            It has, but the rules section doesn’t clarify brigading Anti-AI or otherwise as one of the big no-no topics. We did vote on a change to the rules but it seems it wasn’t implemented yet. Maybe @db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com or @Flatworm7591@lemmy.dbzer0.com just hasn’t gotten around to it yet but it would help in terms of it being known that we mean business.

            This instance currently allows new community creation, however the following subjects are explicitly not allowed as communities.

            • Nothing positive or promoting cryptocurrency, blockchain or NFTs
            • Nothing extreme-right-wing. This includes conspiracy theories, SovCit, Pro-Police, AnCaps etc. We’ll know it when I see it, don’t test us!
            • No anti-science topics.
            • No Tankie shit.
            • No TERFs.
            • No Porn.

            Preferably you’ll stay within the topics endorsed by this instance (see first line)

  • anar@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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    7 months ago

    This is a hopefully a happy middle group that stops these stupid fights and makes people focus on bigger things.

  • Widdershins@lemmy.world
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    7 months ago

    What about that mod banning people from ai communities before they could block the community?

  • SubArcticTundra@lemmy.ml
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    7 months ago

    I think it would be good if users could somehow add the tag to a post if the owner forgets to. Tildes.net has this. Although I get that it would need ti be added inti Lemmy.