Their entire basis of preaching guilt over the consiousness angle was egotistic, overzealous and unproven.(either all plant matter and all animal matter are consious or they are all not. Therefore everyone, no matter what matter they consume to survive, remains guilty of ending a consiousness or not and therefore neither diet maintains the higher ethical ground to guilt from. I will not be convinced otherwise. And especially not while every white paper starts with defining consiousness is always in their own pure hubris)
It was not until it was called ‘Plant based’ that i got on board as that research is proven. yes: it is healthier, yes: less emmissions. yes: uses less matter to consume. yes: more sustainable. (Although not sustainable for those who remain unable to digest beans as a form of protien. but that is another story)
Ethical? in the form of ‘less matter’ one might try to argue but i would not use any guilt angle on ethical stance so long as any matter that may be argued to contain consiousness is consumed. No ethical stance starts with measuring anything in value as ‘less than’ another so long as it is used just to justify to find their own comfort to judge others from.
I am aiming for a vegan lifestyle, but it is difficult to escape hidden milk and eggs in unexpected places. I hope everyone can agree that factory farming is needlessly cruel and should not be supported. I am happy with any steps taken to reduce suffering in the world. I think too many people view it as all-or-nothing, and they can’t do all so they do nothing. But every choice we make affects the world we share; any individual can make a difference, even a small one, and they add up.
As I stated before: you’re inserting your own hubris of what consious means as if we agree.
I don’t agree with your definition of consciousness.
This means we cannot have an honest conversation on what that means as we already disagree with what consiousness means.
This does not mean I disagree plant based is valid on the other arguments. Just not this one.
As i said: it is unethical to even suggest it’s a matter of judgement on ethics as you’ve already down graded something in order just to be comfortable to judge someone else on their ethics. A complete discard of plants from the equation is egotistical of yourself to even go there.
you revealled you are already unequipped with ethics to be arguing ethics.
Vegans on the internet seem like a psy-op and full of trolls. The vegans I meet are rarely that fucking crazy.
The cost of meat has gotten so expensive over the past decade that they vegan/vegetarian alternative is so much cheaper. I’m not a vegan. I’m just not going to spend $40 for a chunk of steak.
Even at dinner parties, I make tofu/vegan stuff. I make chicken patties, spaghetti and meatballs, Asian stir fry… All using mock protein. I tell people and they’re convinced it’s good too.
It’s the same concept of people being assholes online, but applied to those belief structures. They are just taking the freedom that anonymity provides and acting like their true selves. They’re just too afraid to be such insufferable assholes in person because of the response they KNOW they would receive.
They misunderstand that science is always striving for evidence and if something isn’t 100% irrefutably proven it doesn’t mean that alternative hypotheses should be considered equally viable.
They don’t understand that a line is drawn in the scientific community based on current evidence and there is no secret cabal preventing research into plant consciousness. They ignore scientists who study plant electrical signaling who explicitly distinguish between complex biochemical response mechanisms and centralised subjective experience.
They don’t even acknowledge that even if plants could be considered conscious they would have levels of it below that of your average mammal.
I’ve tagged them as “Plants are conscious advocate” so I can take any opinion they push with a handful of salt.
Consciousness is very poorly understood, because we don’t understand brains very well at all.
However, because we don’t know how it works, it’s possible that every system with chemical reactions, moving parts etc, might be conscious. It’s a bit of a mind fuck.
that’s the thing: no one knows. No one agrees. Not even vegans. It doesn’t stop them pushing out misinformation about it.
For all the facts we do actually have and agree on i could make just as many claims that there is consciousness as they claim there isn’t.
Meanwhile you have anti abortion claims that life starts at conception. This makes an assumption of when consciousness starts. Still not fact.
And scientists don’t want to be withheld from work on plants for the fear of ethics. (Yet they tear mice apart)They will go as far as make no effort of reference or crosscheck even on the discussion of consciousness(even shows in the above link at the bottom of the study) like they know so little they can’t even begin with reference that was ever agreed upon and burry any that contradict their hubris while making an assumption on consciousness.
All three of these groups are in constant contradiction depending on comfort level of ethics around consciousness. It’s like a shitty ballet around a non fact.
One thing: I absolutely hate vegan branding. Some things, I want it to TASTE like meat (like mock pork, or vegan nuggets).
Other things, I would rather it taste like a vegan version of it. Like tofurkey is not at all comparable to regular turkey. And any meat eater hoping to switch is going to be pissed.
Like no, this is a whole different meal man. Don’t get it twisted.
No ethical stance starts with measuring anything in value as ‘less than’ another so long as it is used just to justify to find their own comfort to judge others from.
That’s not what I’m doing. I’m going from the ground up. Based on all available evidence, plants do not feel fear or pain. Again, they have no brains. This information guides my choices, following my goal to reduce suffering in the world.
You’re the one thinking backwards. I never said they were “less than,” only that they lack consciousness. You’re pretending we should feel guilty for eating things that cannot think.
If you feel that strongly about it, stop consuming anything.
Kingdom phylum class species, do these words mean anything to you?
Jellyfish and starfish are animals, not plants. Not all things without brains are plants, but there are no plants with brains that we know of.
Jellyfish seemingly cannot feel pain and only have enough neurons to crudely sense their environment; I advocate against consuming any animals, but in terms of animal suffering it is probably less harmful to eat a jellyfish than a cow, chicken, pig, or even fish, which can feel pain.
My ethics include using scientifically acquired information to make the best choices we can. The fuck are you doing?
Veganism.
Their entire basis of preaching guilt over the consiousness angle was egotistic, overzealous and unproven.(either all plant matter and all animal matter are consious or they are all not. Therefore everyone, no matter what matter they consume to survive, remains guilty of ending a consiousness or not and therefore neither diet maintains the higher ethical ground to guilt from. I will not be convinced otherwise. And especially not while every white paper starts with defining consiousness is always in their own pure hubris)
It was not until it was called ‘Plant based’ that i got on board as that research is proven. yes: it is healthier, yes: less emmissions. yes: uses less matter to consume. yes: more sustainable. (Although not sustainable for those who remain unable to digest beans as a form of protien. but that is another story)
Ethical? in the form of ‘less matter’ one might try to argue but i would not use any guilt angle on ethical stance so long as any matter that may be argued to contain consiousness is consumed. No ethical stance starts with measuring anything in value as ‘less than’ another so long as it is used just to justify to find their own comfort to judge others from.
Plants do not have brains or nervous systems, they are not conscious.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8052213/
I am aiming for a vegan lifestyle, but it is difficult to escape hidden milk and eggs in unexpected places. I hope everyone can agree that factory farming is needlessly cruel and should not be supported. I am happy with any steps taken to reduce suffering in the world. I think too many people view it as all-or-nothing, and they can’t do all so they do nothing. But every choice we make affects the world we share; any individual can make a difference, even a small one, and they add up.
As I stated before: you’re inserting your own hubris of what consious means as if we agree.
I don’t agree with your definition of consciousness.
This means we cannot have an honest conversation on what that means as we already disagree with what consiousness means.
This does not mean I disagree plant based is valid on the other arguments. Just not this one.
As i said: it is unethical to even suggest it’s a matter of judgement on ethics as you’ve already down graded something in order just to be comfortable to judge someone else on their ethics. A complete discard of plants from the equation is egotistical of yourself to even go there.
you revealled you are already unequipped with ethics to be arguing ethics.
You are you’re own paradox of lack of ethics.
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No. I won’t shut up. You can calm down, grow up and disagree like an adult.
And all this so you can be judgy?
Find better goals in life.
You can go chill your heels on my block list troll.
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Kudos man.
Vegans on the internet seem like a psy-op and full of trolls. The vegans I meet are rarely that fucking crazy.
The cost of meat has gotten so expensive over the past decade that they vegan/vegetarian alternative is so much cheaper. I’m not a vegan. I’m just not going to spend $40 for a chunk of steak.
Even at dinner parties, I make tofu/vegan stuff. I make chicken patties, spaghetti and meatballs, Asian stir fry… All using mock protein. I tell people and they’re convinced it’s good too.
It’s the same concept of people being assholes online, but applied to those belief structures. They are just taking the freedom that anonymity provides and acting like their true selves. They’re just too afraid to be such insufferable assholes in person because of the response they KNOW they would receive.
Im vegetarian and met some internet vegans and vegies irl. Theeey are not fun…
man what
Don’t even bother, I’ve tried.
They misunderstand that science is always striving for evidence and if something isn’t 100% irrefutably proven it doesn’t mean that alternative hypotheses should be considered equally viable.
They don’t understand that a line is drawn in the scientific community based on current evidence and there is no secret cabal preventing research into plant consciousness. They ignore scientists who study plant electrical signaling who explicitly distinguish between complex biochemical response mechanisms and centralised subjective experience.
They don’t even acknowledge that even if plants could be considered conscious they would have levels of it below that of your average mammal.
I’ve tagged them as “Plants are conscious advocate” so I can take any opinion they push with a handful of salt.
Consciousness is very poorly understood, because we don’t understand brains very well at all.
However, because we don’t know how it works, it’s possible that every system with chemical reactions, moving parts etc, might be conscious. It’s a bit of a mind fuck.
Sure, for a generous definition of “possible”. However I don’t see how you get from there to “either all are, or all are not”.
Like, you could at some point have said we don’t understand magnetism. You couldn’t from that argue that either all metals are magnetic or none are.
that’s the thing: no one knows. No one agrees. Not even vegans. It doesn’t stop them pushing out misinformation about it.
For all the facts we do actually have and agree on i could make just as many claims that there is consciousness as they claim there isn’t.
Meanwhile you have anti abortion claims that life starts at conception. This makes an assumption of when consciousness starts. Still not fact.
And scientists don’t want to be withheld from work on plants for the fear of ethics. (Yet they tear mice apart)They will go as far as make no effort of reference or crosscheck even on the discussion of consciousness(even shows in the above link at the bottom of the study) like they know so little they can’t even begin with reference that was ever agreed upon and burry any that contradict their hubris while making an assumption on consciousness.
All three of these groups are in constant contradiction depending on comfort level of ethics around consciousness. It’s like a shitty ballet around a non fact.
One thing: I absolutely hate vegan branding. Some things, I want it to TASTE like meat (like mock pork, or vegan nuggets).
Other things, I would rather it taste like a vegan version of it. Like tofurkey is not at all comparable to regular turkey. And any meat eater hoping to switch is going to be pissed.
Like no, this is a whole different meal man. Don’t get it twisted.
That’s not what I’m doing. I’m going from the ground up. Based on all available evidence, plants do not feel fear or pain. Again, they have no brains. This information guides my choices, following my goal to reduce suffering in the world.
You’re the one thinking backwards. I never said they were “less than,” only that they lack consciousness. You’re pretending we should feel guilty for eating things that cannot think.
If you feel that strongly about it, stop consuming anything.
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Holy shit, did you skip basic biology?
Kingdom phylum class species, do these words mean anything to you?
Jellyfish and starfish are animals, not plants. Not all things without brains are plants, but there are no plants with brains that we know of.
Jellyfish seemingly cannot feel pain and only have enough neurons to crudely sense their environment; I advocate against consuming any animals, but in terms of animal suffering it is probably less harmful to eat a jellyfish than a cow, chicken, pig, or even fish, which can feel pain.
My ethics include using scientifically acquired information to make the best choices we can. The fuck are you doing?
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